trouble is if the money isn't there that 'equality' just ends up as 'everybody poor'

That's what happened to all the Eastern Bloc states pre 1989.

So that 'generally making more money' is sadly crucial.

Should point out that I consider myself left of centre, but am well aware that there are limits to how far you can go leftwards before it actually becomes counterproductive.
Sadly, if there were an easy way to make everyone well off someone would have found it by now!

Posted By: mr carra on June 23rd 2016 at 14:10:07

Message Thread

I still haven't heard any valid reasons why the UK would be better off out of the EU (NCFC) - Larry Hagman, Jun 23, 13:05:10
- Farage said if we Brexit he can afford to go to the dentist (NCFC) - usacanary, Jun 23, 17:23:23
- there arent any. people dont like foreigners (NCFC) - IG88, Jun 23, 13:54:41
- No point arguing over it now. The vote will decide. (n/m) (NCFC) - Jim, Jun 23, 13:34:48
  - Has everyone voted yet? (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:36:57
    - Nope. Going to make sure that I am the very last person at my polling station (NCFC) - Knitted Jesus, Jun 23, 13:41:27
- I know, you tell us every day (n/m) (NCFC) - Hulk Rules, Jun 23, 13:25:42
- It's not a numbers game, it's a question of who comes. Whether the UK (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 13:22:25
  - yes, they would still want to trade with us (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:30:23
    - There is no EU-US trade deal at the moment. (NCFC) - Greeny, Jun 23, 13:44:53
  - "other EU countries would want to continue free trade" (NCFC) - Larry Hagman, Jun 23, 13:29:27
    - Well I think the Germans basically call the tune. I strongly their economic (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 13:35:53
      - EU voting records show that Germany & UK are on the losing side most (n/m) (NCFC) - Larry Hagman, Jun 23, 13:50:36
      - There isn't a single EU trade deal with any bloc or country not involving taxes or tariffs (n/m) (NCFC) - South_West_Canary, Jun 23, 13:49:56
      - well they are the ones who would be most pissed off at us leaving (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:41:43
        
        No Germany don't have individual allies, it's what the EU is for (NCFC) - harry boulders, Jun 23, 13:48:45
        
        ??????? (n/m) (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:49:56
      - *strongly suspect* (n/m) (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 13:38:25
- the first three paragraphs here make a pretty compelling case imo (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:15:45
  - he talks a lot of sense until he starts babbling on about Tories and reveals (NCFC) - Jim, Jun 23, 13:38:21
  - The utters and xenophobes have ensured that leave will poll 40% plus (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:36:33
    - so you consider the best part of 14,000,000 people to be nutters and xenophobes? Talk abou (NCFC) - Jim, Jun 23, 13:41:45
      - judging a whole group of people by the abhorrant views of a small minority? (NCFC) - Ralf Scrampton, Jun 23, 13:58:04
        
        No I wouldn't (although suspect you are about to pull a post (NCFC) - Jim, Jun 23, 14:01:17
        
        i could, but it's better that we pull together Jim, prove that we're better than that (NCFC) - Ralf Scrampton, Jun 23, 14:13:38
        
        Except maybe Ipswich fans.... (n/m) (NCFC) - Jim, Jun 23, 14:04:23
      - No I don't consider 14m to be nutters and xenophobes (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:53:03
        
        Ok - sorry thats what it sounded like. I don't think its xenophobic or (NCFC) - Jim, Jun 23, 13:59:13
        
        No worries Jim. (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 14:13:04
      - yes, because that would be impossible (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:48:40
        
        I do quite like the fact that... (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 14:35:55
      - Absolutely. The bien pensant right-on attitude of such people makes me really, (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 13:46:57
        
        Which is absolutely what I haven't done - but do carry on. (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:53:40
        
        You've just called 25% of the people who want out as such. (n/m) (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 14:08:02
        
        No I haven't. Read my posts. Jim understood. Read my posts. (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 14:12:43
        
        You said that without nutters & xenophobes leave would have polled (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 14:42:46
        
        Pick the option which you like the most. (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 14:51:59
        
        Irrelevant. I'm trying to understand what you're saying. (n/m) (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 14:54:21
        
        Well, no. He hasn't. (n/m) (NCFC) - Yellalee, Jun 23, 14:12:14
        
        I must have misread the post then cause that what appeared to say . (n/m) (NCFC) - Men without hats, Jun 23, 17:26:40
      - the leaders are, not the voters (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:45:00
    - yep, depressing isn't it? (n/m) (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:38:30
  - here's his most recent column (NCFC) - Ralf Scrampton, Jun 23, 13:28:27
    - yep, basically more of the same argument (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:35:58
  - well he explains some problems (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:27:03
    - His point is that the EU is not democratic and categorically does not serve (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:33:46
      - well that's the point (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:39:47
        
        Not sure about that - the EU at its heart is a neo-liberal trading block (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:43:22
        
        yes, it would (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:54:06
        
        don't agree with that (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:58:21
        
        trouble is if the money isn't there that 'equality' just ends up as 'everybody poor' (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 14:10:07
        
        well this is much more of an ideological debate (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 14:16:18
        
        well of course there are (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 14:24:54
        
        agreed, but then the question is whether it is easier (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 14:33:51
        
        clearly won't happen overnight (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 14:41:26
      - It would also perhaps to be fair to say that his views are identical to Johnson and Gove (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:35:30
        
        well yes, his views are similar in that one respect (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 13:38:07
        
        well no, actually it is for exactly the same reason (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 14:04:09
        
        that doesn't make sense (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 14:11:59
        
        it's the same reason - they dislike it because it is overwelmingly centrist (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 14:18:48
        
        Paul Mason is an interesting guy though (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:49:36
        
        yeah, he's certainly got non-mainstream views for the UK at this present time (NCFC) - Mecagoenti, Jun 23, 14:01:28
  - why hasn't he replaced the British government yet? (n/m) (NCFC) - Ralf Scrampton, Jun 23, 13:25:50
- TAKING BACK CONTYRO (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:09:32
  - CONTROL AS WELL (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:09:46
    - Control of what? (NCFC) - Larry Hagman, Jun 23, 13:11:48
      - PUTTING THE GREAT BACK IN TO BRITAIN (n/m) (NCFC) - norway, Jun 23, 13:35:45
        
        TAKE BACK ARE CUNTRY! (n/m) (NCFC) - Steve in Holland, Jun 23, 14:47:49
        
        BriGreattian? (n/m) (NCFC) - Ralf Scrampton, Jun 23, 13:50:34
      - I'm not sure the veto cannot be circumvented? Isn't there something about (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 13:26:46
        
        QMV is used for most things, as you'd expect (NCFC) - mr carra, Jun 23, 13:34:47
        
        Is this like the Hose of Lords not voting against the Commons on (NCFC) - dennis moore, Jun 23, 13:41:44

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